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K: (laugh) and um, these are our more specific *crackle* questions, hopefully. I’m gonna up the volume, okay, and so we start out I start start off with some very vague questions. And um, and uh, we were we were wondering where you liked to where you liked to go when you where here at Hollins.

M: Where we hung out?

K: Right.

M: Well, our favorite place was across the road. *point behind shoulder* It was the, it was the log cabin which was then called the Tinker Tea House. Later there were various names um but uh, they had sticky buns that that you would kill for. (K: laugh) And naturally they were not exactly what we should have been eating because most of us gained a few pounds. I wasn’t used to the kind of food that Hollins was serving cause I came from Yankee Land. (K: laugh) Were we we didn’t have all that good bread and we didn’t have uh all those wonderful fried apples with bacon and we didn’t have all that yummy grits with butter and then we, on Sunday we had a little song about Sunday dinner. Sunday we had mashed potatoes, broccoli, and chicken and and-a coconut cake or something. and so that was always Sunday dinner and so we had a little song about it but I’ve forgotten how it goes. So we did love to go over there and stuff ourselves uh but it was not good. Uh, the people who came here were very slim (K: laugh) and I gained 15 pounds which (K: heh) was the last 15 pounds I ever gained in my life. um but uh we also went into town. And as you know in order to go to town we had to get ourselves, dressed up in white gloves usually white, and a hat and stockings (K: giggle) and a proper dress- no slacks and that was to show that we, were not to be taken into white slavery (K&M: laugh). I think it was supposed to be a protection from anybody who wanted to kind of lay a hand on us I don’t if it did, because some people- I’m sure- got involved with people they shouldn’t have but in general um nobody bothered us. And-a we would go to a movie, we would go shopping, we would-a call a taxi and the taxi cost a dollar to go to Roanoke but! If you had five people, in the taxi it cost everybody obviously 20 cents. So that’s the way we went we didn’t have to put out much money- until we got there.

Richard: That was shortly after I worked in the railroad for 28 cents an hour

M: Yeah yeah he likes to remind me that it’s not the amount of money it’s the uh, it’s the um

K: Proportion?

R: Hours of work it takes

M: Hours of work it takes to buy something. In other words his father had to work many hours to buy him a bicycle. And if the bicycle cost 50 dollars that was a huge amount of money because he probably had to work, you know like a week to get that much money to buy him a bicycle so- which he did. So that’s his economics.

K: On some really old maps when I was researching I noticed a place called Happy Valley and I was wondering-

M: Oh, Happy Valley was where I got the worst poison ivy I’ve ever had in my life! (K: laugh) It was my birthday, April 28^th 1939, and we were gonna graduate in another month. And I decided to give myself a birthday party and it was going to be a picnic in Happy Valley and it was-Happy Valley was then -it’s across the road and quite a ways down the down a small road- I mean that was where it was then-I mean what they called Happy Valley now it’s whole bunch of houses. (K: okay) but um, it was beautiful you could think of it as maybe where Ramona *wide shaking hands* and her lover hung out or some other idyllic place. It had a meadow and beautiful trees and a stream and–a you just couldn’t think of a more poetic setting. So we spread out our picnic and we all sat down on the ground. And we had on shorts and we sat in the poison ivy (M: laughs K: ooh) So my birthday *slap table* party turned out to be very itchy (laugh) but we had a good time until we found out what had happened it was all over our legs and behind our knees and on our hands because we had put our hands on the ground. and I don’t- I didn’t remember noticing the poison ivy but it was surely there. But it’s a beautiful place- it was.

K: It was. We also noticed um and quite a few girls were interested in this and I just bring it up because it’s really fascinating to me, in some of the old yearbooks there’s a waterfall pictured and we don’t know of any waterfall near the campus

M: Well, maybe over, where where do you think there’s a waterfall? *To P*

R: Over the dam on the lake, on the reservoir

M: Carvin’s Cove?

R: Absolutely.

M: Carvin’s Cove is really a creek and they-

R: -There’s dam over there-

M: -to make a lake-

R: -Over there where the lake is now it came in, *hands move down in a V* and the dam is very small and short. Uhm, Mr. Carvin, according to the legend here, was being cased by the Indians and he came up where that dam is nah and jumped- it was a waterfall (K: Oh, I see)-and he jumped into the deep part of the waterfall and escaped from the Indians

M: laugh

R: Mr. Carvin

M: That’s the story (laugh) Have you been to Carvin’s Cove?

K: I’ve actually been out. We went out towards the reservoir one day.

M: Weh- It’s a- it’s a nice walk and you know you can do it, you’re young (laugh)

K: We can- we can.

R: Well that was Mr. Carvin.

M: You can also rent a boat.

K: (laugh) We-one of my friends has a canoe and we were looking to put it -in the water-

M: -That’s that’s good- that’s great.

K: We’re set. So uh, you told a story earlier this weekend about uh bring an Asian girl to campus and how that raised quite a few eye brows and I was just wondering if there were any other incidences where you, felt you were going against social convention?

M: It only- it was only pointed out to me, weeks later it never occurred to me that there’d be any question. She was Japanese. I met her at a conference in Washington and she had a free weekend and I said my roommate’s going to be away come on down and stay. An you know she went to the dining room. We had our meals she slept in my roommate’s bed so what’s the big deal? But some people- because she was a foreigner and also she was not white *finger pointed up* that was the big thing. I mean she looked pretty white but she was an Asian- she was Japanese um, uh what else, um we were-we were

R: Did you tell her about when they first tried to get you to, bring a black girl down here?

M: Oh, well that was later you know, when Logan was president. He said we would-

R: You had a particular girl that we knew that was very bright.

M: Yeah. “We really want to have some African American,” in those days they used black, “black students at Hollins and-an we hope you’ll try to recruit some.” an the person I knew who would have been perfect wouldn’t think of going to Hollins because we- she wanted to be where she might meet some men. (K: Laugh) And there are very few African American men around here-

R: -But I was-

M: that she might date

R: What I was remembering is that you refused to bring her, to suggest it to her because you said you were not ready for her yet.

M: Well, I did think that at the time.

R: You said so.

M: Her name was Kate Clark. And she went to the Master’s School which it a boarding school near where we live but she was a day student. And she was one of their star students. her father as the prominent psychologist on whose testimony the Supreme Court decision of- for school integration hinged because he had done a great deal of research showing that’s it’s not just separate but equal that will be just, that the fact of being separate is a psychological impediment to education. and the fact that some people are shut out, of the mainstream if you want to call it that it’s no longer very main, has a psychological effect on them that makes them feel um like second class citizens which prevents them from aspiring to be who they could be. And that was his testimony which I think swayed the Supreme Court. So she was a very desirable prospect she was very bright she had a wonderful academic record um and I really did not want her, whom I knew, to be subject to any *tap fingers in cage* kind of (pause) you know how it might have been. (Laugh) it didn’t seem fair. So they what they did was they were able to get some um students from places like Jamaica, where they knew that they were important and they knew they were equal cause they came from an all black society more or less, even though the British were dominate. They spoke excellent English and it did help- them- fit in better that in those years so. But you know what happened? The um, the people in the dining room an this was later that they had the cafeteria system, I mean people at counters to serve you, not tables with white table clothes the way we were served. We were treated like plantation owners. uh that’s bad- that’s a bad simile because of what Hilary Clinton did. You know she said the Bush administration is a plantation. And by that she meant that some people are the bosses but then the um the press built that up into a kind of a racial slur which she did not deserve she didn’t mean that at all. But anyway, she shouldn’t have been so smart and used such a clever simile. But um they refused to serve these, African-am um these Jamaicans and Barbadians or whoever they had, people from the West Indies they thought it was not proper for them to be here at Hollins.

R: It was the black waiters -who refused to serve them

M: -yeah, these women (K: laugh) who were serving *shake hand* at the counters where people would pick up their meals. So it cuts both ways and that they had to deal with, also, at college

K: Um

M: This is my memory of it you know I could be wrong about the way it happened but that’s what I was told I wasn’t actually here.

K: - here yeah- No, I have stories like that I’m like oh and blahdidy blah happened and people are like how do you know and I’m like because I was told.

M: well you have to-

K: I wasn’t here (laugh)

M: Well you have to have a piece of paper (laugh)

K: Um I was, um gonna ask you about the international relations club and how that worked.

M: Oh, oh we had a good time, by the way

K: you were the president

M: Well you know I was a sophomore and I was the one who would do it! (K: laugh) Um a, one thing I want to say about this business of of um documentation. You know Hollins Col Columns was previously called, the Echo or some dumb name like that (K: laugh) and if you look- I’m sure the files of the Hollins Columns and its predecessors are here. and if you look in any year you’ll find what the big issue was and at one point I’m sure you’ll find this thing about the people refusing to serve the students- if you need that kind of documentation. (laugh) It’s a lot of work.

K: It’s a lot of work. No, I was supposed to research about what the hot topics were when you were here.

M: Oh, oh oh oh um well-

K: So might I get some follow up questions-

M: we- we had two factions among students I happened , to be the chairman of what was called the student curriculum committee, I think *raise finger circle hand* that’s what was it’s name, we were supposed to advise the administration on what students wanted in terms of curriculum. But students were totally divided. Half of them, I don’t know if it was exactly half but roughly the ones who thought about it, wanted a straight liberal arts curriculum. The others wanted more technical subjects that would get them jobs. and my personal opinion was that this was not a, technical school it was a liberal arts school and that’s where we should put our emphasis but I was chairing and I couldn’t try, I would maybe try to influence them a little but I wouldn’t overtly do it. And-a we did come out with-a, um a scheme where the liberal arts would be the primary courses taught but in order to facilitate, um that work we’d have things like typing, now it would be computers, and um some other technical thing. that um and the the way of, getting it in there was that it would be a support a technical support for the academic work and that’s what we recommended and they did do that. You wouldn’t get credit. If you took typing you wouldn’t get credit for it it would only be to facilitate your work.

K: oh so you basically took a class that was-

M: In other words we wanted them to teach what they now call keyboard So that we could all learn to type and the teachers thought that was a great idea because then they could all read our

K: Your Essays! (Laugh) oh!

M: So I think that’s what they eventually did.

K: um did you feel you- uh you were going to tell me about the International Relations club.

M: Oh that, yes um so, um so I had a- when I was in high school I took a course in European History that was marvelous. I was in in Salem High School and our teacher was a really talented student of European history and a good teacher. and I just learned and you know I was so crazy about it that I learned as much as possible about the history of Europe and in 1935, 6, and 7, and it was 1936 and 7 that I was doing the International Relations Club, Europe was about to explode. And so we were very interested and we um, we actually as I remember we didn’t just inform ourselves but I think we would have a forum or a briefing or something to try to get people to come and be informed on some of these questions but then we took a peace position and our main professor here who was interested in Europe, was the professor of political science and as I said yesterday he, said that Europe was going to go to war and we didn’t like that idea. Cause we were peaceniks! So so we called him a war monger we were very unhappy with him, but of course he was right (clears throat) it think that was our main- main thing we did and we might have uh um let’s see that was 35 we might have studied the League of Nations. Um uh to find out how, because the US was not a member of the League of Nations we didn’t have direct

R: Well nobody was for very long

M: (nervous laugh) It was pretty long it was from Wilson to um Kennedy to um whoever was president in 1945.

R: Well, I didn’t know it (talking over each other)

K: Roosevelt?

M: Well it started with Wilson.

R: I know it did but I didn’t think it lasted that long.

M: It went out of business in the World War. I mean it failed! (Laugh) They had a war. Anyway (K: laugh) I think we did study the League of Nations and what it was doing and not doing. But it was kind of like the League of Women Voters we studied.

K: Um, so I was gonna ask you how you met your husband

M: Right, in Salem, on our front yard. (M&K: Laugh) We had moved here very recently when I was a junior- in the fall- and he came up with a friend

R: You had been moving back and forth before.

M: Yeah, but when actually set up house keeping the house we had used in the summer before, you know we came down here in the summer. And it’s a very small house and-a my father built some more rooms onto it when we actually moved but it still wasn’t very big. Um my grand- he had built it for his father and he’d also built a little, and his father, who was a farmer at heart but who was really a horsy man he he he was

R: Trotters

M: he bought trotters *wide arms* uh into the country and he had, had a big farm had a a trotting ring on his farm

R: Full size er race track

M: And every Fourth of July he would have trails with these horses and people would bring their horses and their silkies and they would race *circle hand* and carry on and he managed to bankrupt heh bankrupt himself. (K: ooo) his farm finally- finally he’d borrowed so much money to invest in these horses his farm was to be sold for taxes and my grandmother had a little money and so she bought the farm back when the government was going to auction it off she bid it back and-a so then she owned the farm (laugh) and she was tired of his shenanigans and so she threw him out. (K: laugh) So my father took pity on him and built- and he bought some property in Salem with a beautiful view which was his main consideration and he built him a little house and he built himself a stable for the one horse that he kept the horse was the champion his name was Champion uh I used to know scotch name-anyway he brought the horse and my mother said funniest thing she ever saw was to go up and visit my grandfather at his little place, four acres, and watch him try to plow with a race horse. (R: laugh) He would say whoa whoa and be cussing and running behind the plow (laugh) trying to get this very poor land plowed so he could raise his, vegetables he loved to raised produce. He loved to raise flowers and wonderful looking vegetables. It was his pride because he really at heart even though he was at one time a huge land owner and a very important person, on the eastern shore of Maryland, he descended to four acres but he still wanted to farm. (K: laugh)

K: But that was the story about how you met your husband. (Laugh)

M: okay

K: We got distracted. (Laugh) *begin to talk at once*

M: Well I tell you-

K: -It was a great story about your grandpa-

R: *unable to hear*

M: You might say I’m a raconteur. (Laugh)

K: Oh, I love your stories. I’m just like well, that wasn’t the answer.

M: It’s not getting us to your assignment.

K: Well, that’s alright

M: He he came up to play badminton (K: oh) on the grass-

R: Oh, ah, well, Bill brought me up to introduce me to you

M: Well that! I didn’t know that. Was a hidden agenda. (K: oh laugh) So he brought his badminton racket and they were playing badminton and I had been in Roanoke I had a job. In the college shop. At Hieronymus. which was then the Department store, Miller and Rhodes wasn’t here and all the big stores weren’t here, Hieronymus was the main store. And they employed college- people in college every summer to try and sell their clothes *circle left hand* to these ssstudents who in those days, bought really good clothes to go to school, not just jeans. (K: giggles) and-a so I was working and I had arrived home and he was there so we met. And-a we got to talking and we um, we sat in the car, for a long time, it got dark, and then the mosquitoes began to bite. Do you remember the mosquitoes?

R: That was another night (K: laugh)

M: Well, anyway we just hit it off fine. (K: laugh) and he was hard to get. I had to really really really work hard on him-

R: It was because I had determined years before I was never gonna marry.

M: Yeah, he he told me he was never going to marry. I didn’t know why but I don’t think he was uh uh gay (K: laugh) but he said he wasn’t going to get married. So I said famous last words- to myself *hand on heart* so I worked him over for four and a half years. (Laughs)

K: Oh (laughs)

M: When he started writing me everyday I knew I had him hooked. (Laugh) I was down in Alabama, and he was at the University of Virginia so it was quite a distance and we had to write letters.

R: Wait a minute, all the time I was at the University of Virginia you were here

M: oh that’s right

R: We graduated the same year

M: That’s right, that’s right, you were in New York. That’s even further away. He got a job in a New York law firm and I was in Alabama. (Pause)

K: I’m gonna jump around for a second and um, I was wondering about you daughter’s death you said she died.

M: Oh (sigh) she was wonderful. Her main concern was the trouble was the trouble she was giving other people. Because when she- from the multiple sclerosis *extend arm* when she became disabled she um (pause) had to be taken care of and her husband finally got to be her main caretaker.

R: oh he resigned

M: He actually gave up his job when their son went to college. Um he gave up his job cause the son- they lived very close to the high school and he used to home everyday at lunch and give her her lunch and then-

R:-her son-

M: - would come home in the afternoon a her-a a um her son (quietly) and when he went away to college jo-a Charles *circle left hand* her husband resigned from his professorship and took care of her and they finally moved to a beautiful house in New Hampshire. And he was her exclusive caretaker except- for a nurses’ aid who came in to give her a bath *circle left hand* and all that. but um she would panic if he got out of her sight cause every now and then he would have to do something and we would stay with her an a it was very clear that she was very anxious all the time he was away. And finally she a um had um had trouble breathing *right hand on heart and left on table* and-a trouble swallowing because your nerves control everything and she couldn’t- the nerves gradually didn’t work. So she died. We weren’t there, he *says to Dick* left a message on our answering machine and I called him back. The position that I took and I’m sure he did was that she had to go sometime because we knew that life, was just a burden for her and so we couldn’t be too sad for her but you know (quietly) it was a big loss. (louder) because she’d been so active and so busy so—so talented you know you know she was offered a job at Bowling Green, part of the Ohio University System, teaching physics and she wouldn’t do it said it was more fun to work in the lab with Charles.

R: She had a desk beside his.

M: In the lab. She was free labor for the the astronomy and physics department. (Quiet) Anyway that was what happened and naturally it was it was a horrible loss. It had been coming on for fifteen years and when something like that happens and you know the person is better off it’s not the same shock as the- like an automobile accident. So we set up a little foundation for her at Hollins and I’m still trying to get around to writing um, it’s for- it’s in memory of her mother-in-law, her physics teacher, and her. And I’m still getting around to writing the, thing I wanna write about the two of them so I hope I do it soon.

K: (laugh) Well, I’m sure you’ll get around to it.

M: Well, I’m not getting around to some things.

K: Um, I was also going to ask you um uh any compromises you may have had to make between your family life and your social work-

M: -Ah yes, that’s the classic question

K: It is the question. I forgot to ask it too.

M: Uh tch (pause) well (pause) I did one terrible thing. I was invited to a conference in Europe. I think that was the time and, my, two boys had just gotten over measles and you know measles is a serious disease- childhood disease. And um Dick’s sister was living with us at that time but she refused to baby sit them after they got out of school- they were school age. And I um I wanted to go and so I put them in camp in a day camp where they had a little bus to take them to camp everyday. And apparently it wasn’t a very well organized camp it was at the Hackly School which was a good boarding school. near by in Tarrytown and apparently they were supposed to play baseball a lot and they were standing out in the sun, you know they weren’t good so they were put in the outfield, and you know all that standing around in baseball. And I felt really guilty that they could’ve been you know really damaged um having just gotten over measles with this kind of treatment an maybe it was fairly rigorous or some of the other exercises they did I don’t know but I always felt bad about that, but I did it. (K: laugh) and um I guess, how abused did you feel when I went away? *to Dick*

R: I never gave it much thought because that’s what you did (M&K: laugh)

M: Well he was very busy. He had to work a lot at night and-a and

R: Seven days a week

M: And if he didn’t come home at night, I could get my work done. My work for the various things I was involved with and so uh it had it’s (K: laugh). And let’s see what other compromises- oh the most awful part was trying to find *tap table* a babysitter when there was an appointment you absolutely had to keep. And that was really hard and you would kinda go crazy with that and most women still do, even though they have jobs they still do things at night. And if they don’t have somebody at home to look after the kids you have to find some reliable and that’s also a problem and it was then too. I know our granddaughter- granddaughter-in-law goes to college and she has four little children so she has a baby sit-

R: -what do you mean she’s our granddaughter.

M: Carol.

P Oh, okay

M: I’m talking about Carol not- not Kathy. Kathy seems to manage. Kathy our Lou-Louise’s daughter throws her children in the, childcare center on her way to work that’s it.

R: Well she is a certified childcare person in Massachusetts so she knew how to pick one out.

K: oh (laugh)

M: Okay. I can’t think of nay other compromises.

K: Well, now I’m curious you had three children, is that right?

M: Right, right, and they were- they were- one was born in ‘52, one in ‘48 and the other in ‘45 so, they were not too far apart.

K: now did they go boy girl boy or…

M: the girl and two boys.

K: the girl and, alright.

M: and-a by the time they were all in high school and college I felt, my life had begun. (K: laugh) It was the- I was working all along on these projects but I think from the age of forty to maybe 75 *trace line on table* if you’re female are the very best years of your life and you can accomplish more because you’re major responsibilities have slackened a bit. You can just really devote yourself to whatever career you’re in. At least that was my experience doesn’t happen to everybody.

K: I’m sure my mother will be happy to hear that. (Laugh)

M: Oh there’s no question. You’re at the high of your powers I think if you don’t get sick.

K: If you- if you don’t get sick. God willing. Um, so how many grandchildren do you have then if you had just those three?

M: We had- we have um…

R: Now this is grandchildren.

M: Our son Phillip has no children because his wife apparently, either didn’t want children or couldn’t have children and we’ve never asked, naturally but they just didn’t have children. And our son Richard had two and so that’s two and um um Louise had two, so four grandchildren and five great grandchildren four great grand children from the same grandson (K: laughs) and then he left her. (K: oh sh) or he threw her out. He was not a nice little boy we think he isn’t even related to us.

K: Well-um (laughs)

M: I mean really, he’s so different.

K: (laughs) Oh us families are like that. If it makes you feel better my mother’s mother had uh let’s see, she had eleven and then she had sixteen grandchildren and 6 great-grandchildren.

M: Makes me feel a lot better

K: Its like: it’s okay. (Laugh)

M: Well, if I’d been- if I were in a developing country I’d be embarrassed, to have-

K: -to have-

M: -so few children.

K: -well-

M: -My job was- would be to have children.

K: Alli actually was asking she was like I wonder- she was wondering why you felt you have to have you know, three since um, since um educated women don’t usually have as many.

M: No, see in those days, this was right after World War Two remember?

K: oh, oh yeah

M: The baby boom and the, classic family was two boys and two girls and we assumed we’d have four children but then I got so busy I forgot about it. In between the two boys there’s a, forty eight to fifty two, four years difference between the two of them and anther one was supposed to be slotted in there but I forgot about it. (Laughs) and we didn’t get around to- to I didn’t get around to thinking about it until three years later. so uh that’s the way we had three instead of four but every ad you saw had these two boys and two girls and the happy family. (K: so) really recovering from the war beginning to spend money it was a great time. And the fathers had gone on the GI bill and gotten their education and were really doing well it was really, okay.

K: (very softly) oh

M: (chuckles)

K: Let’s a jump around, um…

M: Are you missing your dinner? What time do they shut down?

K: No, oh, it doesn’t matter. No, my friends are- we have a grill and we’ve been grilling (M: ooo) basically since I left you. I went over there and we set up the grill and we’ve been grilling all afternoon.

M: Oh my goodness. Well it’s 6- it’s 6:16 for your information.

K: Well, thank you (laughs) n’k so my next set of questions is um, a the first one is- it’s about your work so what do you think about the civil rights act- your work on the civil rights act how do you feel about that?

M: Well the main thing is enforcement. And it’s been pretty well enforced. Except in places like Florida where we know from the 1980 er 19

K: What was it, 2003?

M: 2000 election

K: 2000 election

M: We know that there was a deliberate effort in other states too but Florida’s the one that got the publicity um to keep African Americans and Hispanics from voting by various devices. first of all although of the machines in the areas where they live, um the voting machines were not cleaned out you know they had those punch- punch machines where you have to punch the paper and the paper goes into the machine and if they don’t clean out the machines then the- you remember the dimples?

K: mmhmm

M: Well the punch does not go all they way through and make a hole. You just get a dimple.

R: It makes a hole but it’s still hanging there.

M: Yeah and- or you just get nothing because they’re so clogged up with paper that the punch won’t go through at all. So they cleaned out the machines in the more or less white districts but in the Hispanic districts and the black districts. And it’s the price of, housing segregation the-they didn’t bother they didn’t get around to it it wasn’t important.

R: Well they rejected their votes because they were-

M: And so when they started counting those votes were not correct and that was just typical of one of the devices that they used. They would move the polling place and they wouldn’t notify the people, um they would lose their addresses, they would claim that they were felonies and-

R: If they had a traffic ticket.

M: Oh yeah, if you had the slightest infraction your name would be on the list of felonies and you wouldn’t be allowed to vote it went on and on and on. So we’ve got the law but the law has to be enforced.

K: So how do you feel about the civil rights movement because you worked with it in the 60s and you’re still working on it and how do you feel about this?

M: Well, um uh a I think we have to get a different administration who will pay attention to these things. and uh a lot of people who voted in the last election voted against their own interests because the the um the question of poverty is totally ignored by the pres- by the people they voted for they didn’t care about poverty, they didn’t care about enforcing the civil rights laws, they didn’t care about the environment, *wave hand* and these are the people who are the most effected by those issues. people who who are forced to live in districts that are polluted either by chemicals or the air from congested traffic and factories and mills you know its in their interest to vote for people who want to clean up the environment. So I feel bad about it. That’s how I feel. (K&M: laugh) And the next question could be ‘what area you doing about it?’ Well, we’re not in a position to do very much because we’ve been manipulated so that it’s very hard to change the people in power because their district have been gerrymandered so that they’re going to be automatically reelected the ones who are in there now etcetera. (Clears throat) so I feel bad that’s the answer to the question.

K: Feel bad. (K&M laugh) Um, I believe that this is the next thing that happened what was it like being on the President’s Commission on the U. N.?

M: Weell, now you’ve got a real story um there were two commissions I happened to be on one was appointed by Nixon and the other by Carter and the one appointed by Nix-

R: How about hm*cough* how about (pause) a Kennedy?

M: Oh Kennedy, well he-

R: You were there and reported to him.

M: Yeah but that was a different scene. Um a Kennedy appointed the first of the Women’s Commission to Study Women and Eleanor Roosevelt chaired it and I was not on the actual commission but I was what was known as a “public member.” They the- commission appointed a lot of committees to advise it on different topics and I was put on the committee on social security and taxation if you can imagine and since I didn’t feel the least bit competent in that field even though I’d been working on it a lot. I had a marvelous partner she’s the one that really wrote the paper and her name was Evelyn Burns and she was a- she taught I think at Queen’s College and she was an expert on both those issues so we were able to and I knew enough about it to understand the need for changing some of the laws. One was changing social security laws so that a wife who survives her husband would get enough money to live on. Because originally the husband dies and the wife gets half of what they were getting together but that, meant that, she had to live on half of what it took both of them to live and as you know two can live cheaper than one so it was that kinda thing so we tried to remedy that and-a other little quirks which were disadvantageous to women we worked on and those- at least some of those laws were changed. And now the women are screaming that um that, the, uh, or the men are screaming that the women get an undue advantage so you know. Anyway the times-

R: Then you have two other commissions.

M: Oh ah then k alright that one Eleanor Roosevelt died in the middle of it. Which was very sad so when we went to report to Kennedy, who had appointed the commission, um Eleanor Roosevelt wasn’t alive but it had been taken over by the senator from- Maureen Neuberger, where ever she was from Oregon? And-a she had chaired it an we were there uh in the White House presenting this commission to the President of- the report you know we got it all done up in a nice binding and presented it to him and –a a it was a big sad occasion because Eleanor Roosevelt wunndint there. The saddest *swing arm* occasion was when I had to report (pause) hey, maybe that was the time, that we had to report on a commission that was scheduled to report and Kennedy had already died. (K: oh)

R: I was thinking of the time whare he listened to you for a couple of hours and then he went out into the Ro-

M: Oh that was in commission on civil rights 19 um 19 just before he died 1963 and he was assassinated in November and we reported in the middle of the summer. I mean we were meeting with him to try to- it fact he had a called- he was desperately trying to get enough support in congress to pass this new law. And it was first the civil rights act *tap table and shake head* and he would call down the lawyers he would call down the um d the um um ministers a whole bunch of different people, mostly men, with whom he met in the east room of the white house to try to get them on board. And Ester Peterson who was my friend um and his advisor um she said to him if you want action you’ve gotta call the women (K: laugh) so! He invited my whole public affairs committee which numbered 75 people, we wanted enough committee members in each state to you know, try to put things over, and um so he invited all 75 members of my committee the Public Affairs Committee of the National Board of the Y and she only invited or he did well, we got the telegram signed by him*slap table* um but she made up the list and she only invited the President and the Chief Executive of the other women’s organizations. (K: oh no!) I said “Ester! Why did you embarrass me so!” She said “I had to have somebody who would get the job done.” So I was very pleased because everybody went home and they all set up some, program, strategy, to get this vote in all these different states so I think we contributed. So that was a long answer I don’t remember the question but that was the answer. (Laugh)

K: well on it was, I was asking what was it like to be um, on the President’s Commission for the U.N. with Nixon-

M: Oh well-

K: But that’s okay because I didn’t realize you were on that committee with Kennedy.

M: Well I didn’t mention that. But the Nixon commission commission was something else again it was mostly um um big name people that were appointed. Artists. It was to study the United Nations. And I made them study the US government’s input to the United Nations (K: laughs) they really weren’t prepared to do that but I really, got ‘em to do it but um there was two senators and two congressmen, congresspersons I don’t think we had any women congress people on the commission, we might’ve um and um a lot of donors to the Republican campaign. And what did they know, you know? They really enjoyed the prestige of being on the commission they didn’t really do any work. The work had to be done by people who knew something about the United Nations and that was very few. So I, had to work pretty hard. I had to write part of the report and so on. and um, I just did it you know, I didn’t have to because we had a staff member who wrote a draft, but then I- but then he asked me to write the one on human rights and on some other topic and um, and so uh the fact the reason. Why was I appointed on a Nixon commission? and I was- I mean I wondered myself but what happened was that the um Ambassador to the UN who was Charles Yost, a marvelous man, he was part of the discussions as to who would be on this commission and he we have to have a non-governmental person on this commission because they are the main influence on the United Nations. *taps table* And so um I was, I happened to be chairing a-an organization called the Conference of United Nations Representatives and I was the logical person since I chaired this group of NGOs. And-a so he had to go to bat for me cause I didn’t have any political credentials or wasn’t a big campaign donor anything and so he insisted that I was the one choice and the Ambassador to the UN, this is what somebody who was there told me, uh he said that he was the Ambassador to the UN so the Ambassador should have one choice at least as to who should be on this committee Commission to study the UN so I was his choice. I couldn’t say I don’t want to serve under President Nixon (K: laughs) when he had gone to bat for me you know, it was a stonewall a stone, (K: unintelligible) rock and a hard place type of issue but of course I did it because I wasn’t going to embarrass him. So um I did, do it and it was quite a struggle. Because it seemed- it turned out our agenda was to get China seated in the UN that was what Nixon wanted and Nixon in foreign policy was pretty good, he might-a he said he wasn’t a crook but he might-a have been but he was a good foreign policy president except for disarmament. And-a uh so a we had to struggle in the commission because some people really didn’t want this and we finally got to where we were about to vote. *two taps on table* And most of us were prepared to vote for China and a woman from the State Department, who was on the commission, did some funny, *curls hand* parliamentary, trick and the the the vote turned out to be a vote for China and Taiwan (K: oh no) that there should be two Chinas and that was an absolute no-no. And of course China wouldn’t go in into the UN if Taiwan was also in there so the US just pulled the rug out from Taiwan which they’d been protecting and nurturing and promised to defend, all those years. They just went zip *pulling motion* and the rug disappeared and they were out. It was a terrible shock for them and really not quite fair but it happened. And China came, brought gifts, one of their gifts to the United Nations was an absolutely humongous tapestry. *both arms wide* They had- there was only one wall in the whole UN was big enough for it. It was a tapestry of the Great Wall and when they presented it the neon colors would knock you over. (K: laugh) But now it has faded after fifty years so that it looks really good (K: laugh) it doesn’t strike you as being a cartoon it’s a very pretty tapestry of the Great Wall. So anyway, China was seated and Taiwan was left out in the cold but with a big treaty that they would still be defended. And-a one of the little girls that I’ve been, well not little girls, one of the young interns *tap table* I’ve been working with this past week um is from Taiwan. We talked about politics she said they- that they were just doing best they could- middle course so they didn’t get gobbled up that they have a little bit of autonomy. So that was Nixon he gave a gorgeous dinner for us and invited Buton(?) who was then the Secretary General of the UN and the senators and different people made speeches including Shirley Temple. Actually it was very funny, when I went into the White House to go to that dinner the young marine at the door who was there to let us in said to me “Are you Shirley temple?” and I said “No, no, no, I’ve got ten years on her, but she has ten pounds on me” (K: laugh) which was kinda dirty-mean (K: laugh)

R: You didn’t have proper respect for Shirley for a while and I told you she was a lot better than you-

M: Well the when she was ambassador to Ghana.

R: yeah

M: And she did so well I really was thrilled. But Nixon had appointed another actress who was just- a non entity as far as making a contribution was concerned. But Shirley Temple Black really worked on her assignment and she did a good job at the UN and a good job in ch ch in Ghana. So I was very happy to be, be-a confused with her.

K: um, w-w-w-

M: The next one was Carter.

K: Of course, Carter.

M: And that was the fun one because we were charged with putting on this big convention. Women’s- it was called the National-

K: National Women’s Commission on Women’s Year

M: yeah, no this was yeah the US- the US commission not the international. And-a and we had this humongous convention in Huston and prior to that this all happened in one year or less, prior to that we had to put on fifty state meetings to which every woman who wanted to come was invited and six territory meetings because there were places like Guam that the US- it was a US territory and those women had to vote too. And every state had to vote to elect delegates to this big meeting. *points across table* And the New York state one, I attended quite a few of them. Um one of them was where I was called a communist by a newspaper in Louisiana because I quoted somebody else. It wasn’t something I had to say I was quoting Bella Abzug and the newspaper got word of what had been said and decided it was a communist statement so somebody sent me a clipping about how I was a communist. (K: laughs) I’m sure that didn’t sit very well with the President’s Commission- I mean the people in Washington if they had known about it, which they probably didn’t. Um. So this commission had a big job to do and of course it was the year when women were finally getting a little bit of recognition and we were able to get women who wanted to work on this commission to put on this conference from various departments of government they would ask to be seconded *light tap on table* to the commissions staff and they worked like beavers. They they did this immense amount of work you cannot believe how much work it was for a relatively small staff to put on all these meetings in one year or less because we didn’t get started- the big meeting was in November and the- the smaller- the state meetings were all though the spring and summer and they had to work like dogs to get it all done. And I’m still in touch with some of them and they have wonderful and important jobs, now. But um they they were marvelous they they put up with Bella. Bella was a bulldozer. *slap table* She was the congress person, a congresswoman from New York she had managed to get the 5 million dollars out of the congress to put on this meeting when they really didn’t want to do it but she persuaded them. And she was, as a result of having raised the money, she managed to be appointed to Chair the commission. Well. Heh she was a marvelous um, she got things done they way she did it was just practically by knocking people in the head. And-a She was so rude and so demanding that people would cry (K: oh) because she was so abusive you know, if it didn’t go her way! She- And I found out that she was the kind of bully you had to stand up to and she would back down, she went after me once and I said “Bella, you don’t know what you’re talking about” and I explained to her, how it really happened. But I just had to say “Bella you don’t know what you’re talking about” to get her to listen so. We we did survive her we go the meeting done and it was quite a success, a wonderful success, people like Gloria Stein were wonderful politicians and very very sensitive to different people’s agendas and she would work all night with different groups to get them to agree so that we could have consensus as to what we wanted to recommend and I could go on but I won’t. (Laughs)

K: No, I actually want to hear more about this about the women’s conference.

M: Well, it was very exciting and Betty Freidan had been holding out against gays, we ‘shad a plank in our agenda we called it the Women’s- the National Women’s Agenda and that was for the recommendation for ways the laws should be changed and other things. And Betty Freidan didn’t want anything about gays but there was a great big gay um lesbian caucus at meeting and they naturally wanted recognition and they wanted justice and and uh to be treated like anybody else and and most of the people were very sympathetic to that so they went to work on Betty Freidan and she finally stood up in the meeting and said she had changed her mind. That now she understood. Which was a great triumph for the gay rights people who were trying very hard to get a good recommendation in this-a agenda and they did and I feel that justice for um I can’t say all that gay lesbian transgendered and who else?

K: G T L B

M: (laugh) alright

K: I don’t know what it stands for.

M: Gay Transgendered lesbian and somebody else

K: straight?

M: Yeah Maybe. No not straight because they’ve got justice (K: laughs) Anyway, whatever it is.

K: All those people.

M: I think that was the cutting edge of social change in those days and still is I mean justice for all these people, is the cutting edge of what needs to be done. Aside form poverty and all the big issues this is the social issue that needs to be taken care of and it still isn’t and um we got through that and we recommended a lot of other things which have since become law. And-a it was- been- aside form the main meetings we had what they called “side events” and I was elected the pres- head of the international *fingers upright and then tap together* committee so I was responsible of the international component of this international women’s year meeting and I was able to bring- with the cooperation of my friends in the state department I was able to bring about 70 or 80 women form various countries to observe this this conference and you can imagine what um some of those Latin American women, who had never had a chance to talk about the kind of issues we were exploring, like abortion and um, a, marriage and all those cutting edge issues to hear them openly addressed on the floor of a huge convention blew their minds they were so amazed. Ah but it did also open their minds and- because most of them were under great restrictions they couldn’t go out without their husbands. They could never make an appointment with a lawyer, if they wanted a divorce. How could they possibly be in touch with a lawyer? Because you just didn’t do that, in some of those countries. so it was great for them and we had people from the Middle East and uh all all over the world there and we put on um a all kinds of panels. I had Margaret Mead talking. Margaret Mead was very ill and her staff told me she was not allowed to have a press conference with an individual reporter. But that she could have a- I don’t mean a press conference, I mean an interview but she could have a press conference. So I had to kinda wait till she felt up to it. Cause she was really quite ill, this was shortly before she died. And uh, I thought “how will I get the press- if I only announce it an hour ahead how will I get the press to come” *two fingers up* so I-

K: (snorts) they’re the press

M: So I put up a little notice in the press room that said “Margaret Mead will do a briefing at 2 o’clock” the place was packed. They had one hour to find out about it and she was marvelous, of course.

K: Of course

M: And-a so we had her. And she- she was part of a panel and I remember one thing she said in that panel. She said- um a she talked about the YWCA in Africa, and there were a couple of people who kinda snickered, you know that little- those little old ladies in tennis shoes, and she said “Don’t laugh! *stares sternly* The YWCA has done more for the women of Africa than any other organization!” She said it right there, so she knew. Anyway I was very pleased about that. And-a um We put on a marvelous meeting where we brought experts from various parts of the world on disarmament. I mean we had Helen Callicott, do you know who she is? She’s a pediatrician who has spent her life talking about, the first of all she’s the one who really got the um, a dis- who got testing, nuclear testing in the atmosphere abolished because she pointed out what it was doing to the children, to breathe strontium 90, which was the element that was being released by these air- tests in the air. And she showed how the the strontium 90 was found not only in milk but in mother’s milk and that everybody was breathing it and it was very damaging. And so it was Kennedy who got this through the congress. No more testing in the air, so when the United Stated stopped testing and France was still doing it and polluting the South Pacific but they gradually had to stop too and so on. And um uh they um we had other experts in disarmaments. Wonderful meeting. It was going to be held at 12 o’clock because the commission was going to recess on that day at 12 o’clock. Bella called a special meeting of the a convention delegates so a lot of them had to leave our meeting and miss it. Which was too bad but we still had interesting people there who weren’t delegates, among the 20 thousand who came. So, and we put on other events- international events we had the assist secretary attorney general of the UN who had been the head of the International Women’s year conference, the government conference, come and make a little talk and we had um a a tch Margaret Mead as I’ve mentioned and we had um um Barbra Jordan she was marvelous. Senator from Texas she died very early but she was a very powerful woman. And somebody said on the radio recently she ‘spoke with moral *slap table* authority’ *slap table* and she did. You know, if it wasn’t right you don’t do it.

K: Well what was the most, I know you’ve been to a lot of these, what was the most memorable thing about all these women’s year conventions?

M: Oh lord. (Laughs)

K: Well, you think on it I’m gonna shut the window so it doesn’t get too chilly in here.

M: I’m not chilly. I I’m su

K: Well I’m the one in a sundress.

M: But you don’t have much clothes on.

K: I know *window shutting*

M: Oh this is very very hard to say because there were a huge number of memorable moments. I think the most memorable thing that happened happened in Mexico, to me. We had worked very hard to get people whom the governments didn’t want there, to come to our meeting because it was a, non governmental meeting and we could invite who we wanted to. And a lot of- and we invited everybody who wanted to come who could get there and-a. One person we wanted was a little woman this high *hold hand up about 3 feet* from um Bolivia. She was the wife of a tin miner. And she had started a project among the women to bake a special kind of biscuit that is very popular, in Latin America and sell them. And they were making money and for the first time, she had organized them to do this, and their- and for the first time they were able to send their children to school because you have to buy school uniforms other other supplies for school and most of the- those campesinas didn’t have the money, even though their husbands were working the tin mine and making money but not all. And so we had heard about her and what she had done and in her really remote mountain village because there was a social worker from Catholic Charities who had worked with them and told us about. Her name was Donatela de Sernaga and so alright we invited her. The Bolivian government said no way is she gonna go cause she was something of a revolutionary. And the tin miners were kinda out of control they were uh needed the government had to have them because one of their main exports was tin but and so that gave *shakes hand* them a certain independence so they said no she wasn’t gonna go. Wouldn’t gonna give her an exit visa so, tin miners when they heard this- the union, they were unionized, they said okay the, the um wives, and can you image for a woman they would do this, the wives of the government officials are gonna go and highly placed women are gonna go and if you don’t let this woman go we’re gonna strike. We got a telegram *lifts right hand* telling us this. (K: laugh) So we didn’t know weather she was gonna get there or not. She was three days late and I was standing in the hall, corridor *opens hand* very noisy place, cause everybody was buzzing and talking even when the meetings were going on there were plenty of people out in the corridor and an this social worker had brought her so- to see that she got there- to the meeting and she came up to me with this woman. And we both cried *tears up* cause it was so hard for her to get there. She’d been through so much. So then when she tried to go home they wouldn’t let her back in. And so she had to walk over the mountains into Bolivia by an indirect route in order to get home. She had 8 children she said they needed her. She had to go home even though we wrote um that somebody in our group or one of the governments wrote to the Bolivian government saying she needs to go home to her eight children but they still wouldn’t give her a visa to get back in. But this was I think the most memorable story.

K: This one?

M: It was really great. She turned out to be quite a revolutionary she came to the meeting in Denmark she lead a march. she she was a fiery speaker. The minute she came to us in Mexico within 5 minutes *tapping table* she was on the floor in the big meeting and she was ranting and raving, because about the injustices that were done to the peasants in Bolivia and a uh everybody was only allowed to speak 5 minutes then you were supposed to have a discussion from the whole audience, well okay, she spoke the five minutes and the chairmen had the sense- the chairman started to pound her down and then there was such a roar from the audience, she was speaking in Spanish and I was listening from the door and I didn’t have earphones to translate my Spanish isn’t that good uh uh I wasn’t getting exactly what she was saying but I could tell by the tone of voice and also the rest of the folks who were listening to her insisted *pound table* she had to go on the person (K: laugh) in the chair had enough sense to let her go on or we would have (K&R: laughing) a riot she was fiery. And so she went to Denmark and she lead *spreads arms wide* a march for whatever you know poverty um poverty or social justice or whatever. At least in Bolivia they vote. And-a then a bunch of communists in Denmark took her on a tour of a places they thought she should speak and kept her there I don’t know what problems she had getting back at that time because I wasn’t responsible and I didn’t feel I had to see that she got home.

K: well

M: But this was I don’t know what’s happened to her maybe she’s the um loyal opposition in Bolivia now if she’s still alive.

K: um you were speaking earlier to day about

M: what?

K: do you need a minute?

M: no no

K okay.

M: if I if I can’t talk anymore then we’ll quit. I’m getting a little horse but not too

K: Were talking about the International Women’s Tribune Center can you tell me

-M: oh yes-

K: -more about your time with them?

M: That was a very exciting time because we had to do something we were getting so many communications

R: After the Mexican meeting

M: Yeah, after the Mexican meeting and these women needed desperately something to hang on to we had thousands of people on our mailing list. So as I said yesterday we raised some money, the Canadians actually offered it to us, they offered us 50,000 dollars and they wanted me to take a salary I said no way we can’t afford it and and Dick of course is the one who ultimately helped subsidize our organization. Um and we went out and got more money because we had something going and the foundations would support us and some of the governments the Dutch and Swedes and Norwegians were very generous and we got a really great center going. We had training sessions for in communication for women do they could spread *circles hand* the word, from different countries. We paid their expenses to come to New York and stay in New York a couple weeks to learn how to do it. How to get out a newsletter, out to use *hand waves back and forth* the radio, how to to use other communication methods to let people know what was going on with women all over the world and they would write to us or call us or send us reports on what they were doing we’d put that in our newsletter other people would would tell us, in other words we were able to bring the women *moves hands together* together from all over the world around this central um structure, which was the united nations. And then we I think we were instrumental in helping get those other conferences, three other conferences but the conferences- uh tribune is what we’re talking about. um we uh it meant that I went there everyday because they needed as much help as we could provide volunteers and otherwise and my colleague Rosen Harris who was head of the conference of NGOs that really put on these meetings I mean they were the official sponsor of all these woman’s meetings and others too. She helped a uh she she wasn’t with us in the beginning she was head of another organization that demanded her attention but later she came and worked with us the way I was doing and and-a she was amazed at how much progress we had made while she was not there and I felt good about that because she really wanted wanted it to happened and we I just think we were the thing that kept *two hands in a circle, point up with one hand* the movement going at a time when it might have foundered had it not a communication media medium 'cause the UN as I said yesterday they didn’t get out a newsletter about this conference and about what was happening to follow it up and implement the decisions that were made for two years! And we had ours out within a couple months well we had our first newsletter out within, um, about 5 months at least when the conference closed and that kept *large circle with one hand* the momentum going kept the people involved kept us in touch with the leaders in these various countries and we got you know, people who were mentioned yesterday by the other panelist were people I knew. They were the leaders in various fields and they all coalesced *moves hands together* around this international movement and it was quite a phenomenon. And certainly the most successful program the UN has ever mounted and it wasn’t because the delegates really wanted it (M: chuckles) they just got tricked into it (M: laugh)

K: You were going to say something about the conferences?

M: What?

K: You were going to say something about the conferences about how the tribune led to the other conferences?

M –oh—well-

M: the thing that, I think we contributed to the having really good attendance and enthusiasm about the next conferences but Beijing *tap table* that attracted 30,000 women who had to pay their way to get there and conditions were very bad. It rained everything was muddy, the a- communications equipment broke down, or it didn’t work.

R: We recommended that people take a tent and hip boots.

M: Right. Well, they invited me to come, I didn’t go. They invited me to come and address the opening uh the opening of the forum, the women’s the a parallel forum and-a and it was going to held in a huge stadium and I said thanks, but no thanks. They offered me to get me seated, I had a hotel room, which was hard to get and all that, but I just felt I was a has been and they didn’t need to hear form me. And further more um all the same things that had always been happening were happening and I didn’t- and the new people would be the ones to make the contributions the people with new ideas and I didn’t feel I was needed. I only go where I’m needed. So I didn’t go to Beijing but I did help plan the meeting and-a it had a lot of snags *hand slaps table* but we had it and it turned out to be the most publicized one because, naturally the press only covers conflict and there was a huge conflict between the NGOs *tap table* and the government of China *tap table* because the Chinese decided they couldn’t risk having all those NGOs in Beijing where the conference was held, the political conference was held. That they would just get too much in the way and so they told us we had to have our meeting out at Waro (?) which was about

R: twenty miles

M: yeah, ttt- with the traffic and the narrow roads it took about an hour each way to get from one place to another and naturally the NGOs wanted to be where the conference was so they could lobby the conference. But um anyway, um they the NGOs ss the ones who were running things wasted a huge amount of time and money trying to get the Chinese to change their minds. And they got so behind in registering people and and making all the arrangement which a lot of it wasn’t done which was very sad. but um a it was because of this big argument. You can’t get the Chinese government *taps twice* to change its mind once it’s made a decision what’d they think? Anyway um the press did cover this big argument between the government and the NGOs and that got them started covering the conference so it got a lot more coverage than the others. and we tried to keep Mexico secret because the Mexican government was so paranoid about having too many North Americans that we didn’t want to let people in this country know that they could go (K: laugh) enough of them found out to scare the Mexicans but wa- but we didn’t give out any publicity at all. Some people say to me I never heard of it and I say that was our intention (K: giggle). We publicized it in other countries because we wanted them.

K: we all just sneak in under the border anyway (laugh)

M: Exactly an illegal- an illegal migrant (K: laugh)

K: You talked about the woman’s tribune center and-a earlier today you were talking about that you didn’t leave under the best of circumstances.

M: Oh well, it’s just that um that I was very strict about the legal er uh the legal arrangements under which we operated and when I found out that um the stack didn’t- as much as I had tried into their heads- they didn’t really believe that they had to do it and I felt that if they were going to do anything that really was illegal which probably never would have made one bit of difference. But I really couldn’t be party to it but that was you know, that was the time that they cried so much that I changed my mind. But then at the end when I decided it was time to go was when um tch one of the board members, wanted to do a um she wanted to employ a an independent um consultant to look over *circles right hand and taps table* our arrangements well interview all the staff and all the board and a and make recommendations and when he came back and it cost a lot of money that we didn’t have that we should have been putting into program. And when he came back and recommended that um, the that we have a CEO and

R: He wanted to run it like a General Motors

M: And a CEO be given all the power to hire and fire and make program decisions and the board would have very little power except to raise money. Um, I just decided that I didn’t want to be in that kind of organization and that’s when I told them that they were getting along fine without me. But that wasn’t you know the director cried a lot but the others understood my point

K: If you could have gone back and changed one thing about your time there what would you have changed?

M: You could you could say that I might have had a few um uh I might’ve might’ve some changes in the staff. Or something like that.

K: (laugh) I’ll put that in the official report. Okay and um (pause)

M: But they were- the rest of them were marvelous they put up with all kinds of conditions they put up with- every now and then we’d run outta money and they couldn’t get paid till we got in new funds and they and they stood that put up with that and they did everything to keep the thing going. At great personal sacrifice in some cases because everybody was so committed to this success and it really was successful.

K: Does it still exist?

M: I said it really was successful they were committed to making a success at- even through personal sacrifice fro some of them.

K: Well I was wondering if um if it still existed? –Yes yes- it does?

M: Yes, it does. Now instead of doing the kind of work we were doing before they’re doing a great deal of email they have a huge mailing list and they have a newsletter that comes out about every week or two and they report on what’s happening in the South Pacific what’s happening in South Africa abo-about women and they are huge reports, great detail and people all over the world receive this. it’s- really people have computers now and if each individual doesn’t have a computer than the office *circles right hand* of the organization does and so um it’s really the same thing only done in a much more efficient way it’s not as personal and interesting as those great little newsletters we used to put out with the wonderful graphics. Um this this person I was talking about who’s such a talented graphic artist she could tell a story with a few little funny stick *twist hand* characters that you would have to write up for a full page. She was just so good. and what a good photographer she made a slide shows and videos an of course I never did keep any of them, I know I gave some of them to the YWCA and goodness knows what’s happened to them, but um the these were really great reports on the various conferences with pictures a and dialogue etcetera.

K: um How do you feel about the YWCA?

M: I think they have deliberately changed from a movement as I said yesterday to asocial service organization. They do have two important priorities: first one is the elimination of racism which they’re not working on it the way we used to um which we did everyday in everyway um they’re they have something called Hallmark Programs *taps table* where each YWCA’s is committed to putting on some special program that- designed to eliminate racism in their area. And uh and they also have a huge amount of childcare which is great. Cause their values are the same and they’re trying to instill in these children under their care, the values *wide arms* of a um open- openness and integration and acceptance of all kinds of people and so on. And-a and of course the childcare centers themselves are have all kinds of people and races and economic levels because they subsidize some and others pay full fare and so on. So they’re doing a great job. It’s just they don’t have the money to provide the education programs that they used to which enables people know what they’re doing when they are being activists. (Pause) I’m going, I might even go to their annual meeting in Washington, in late April, my birthday. I mean it’ll be on my birthday but I’ll see. (Weak chuckle)

K: Um you. You said they do two things.

M: wha

K: You said they have two thrusts: to eliminate racism?

M: The other one is the empowerment of women.

K: Oh, of course.

M: and and that involves a very strong program against violence. And they have established something called the Week Without Violence which they are presenting an alternate alternatives to to violence in their own program and the programs of other organizations and it’s apparently caught on fairly well. And they persuaded the world YWCA to recommend it so wives in various countries are doing it now. Uh it’s a way of showcasing their programs for one thing cuase they’re talking about alternatives they can talk about childcare, um, disarmament, other good things.

K: um (pause) yesterday you mentioned that, when you were on the panel that uh you continue because you don’t feel that there is anyone who can succeed you-

M: It’s not that I don’t feel, it’s that there isn’t, because everybody who could possibly do it is not available in the daytime. We have one wonderful person on our team, we have five- we’re allowed to have five people on our UN team and , she is a consultant so she can go to meetings and write reports, when she’s not working, but then she never knows when she’ll get a job. She’s been in California *stretched left hand* for the last 6 weeks so we haven’t had much um from her, but now she’s back in New York and she’s been going to meetings during these two weeks the Commission on the Status of Women is meeting and uh I’m sure she went to the international woman’s day meeting on, Wednesday which was the 8^th. and uh, the others some of them they they only wanna do a piece of the work. some people are only interested in children’s, one one woman works with UNICEF force, another one is interested in religion, and she goes to- there’s a big strong religious uh a lot of organizations that are accredited to the UN who are from the churches *circles hand a